On the one hand, they really seem earnest about wanting to make Windows 10 appealing to people like me who fled Windows for Unix-alike systems long ago. And steps like this show that they're not just addressing that at a shallow level, but are willing to dig deep to make it happen, which is sincerely encouraging.
But then on the other hand, they insist on loading Windows 10 up with privacy invasions you can't disable and ads in deeply inappropriate places like Windows Explorer, which is just a huge buzz-kill for the exact type of person who the other stuff is so clearly meant to appeal to. Which gives the whole effort a real Keystone Kops aspect.
It feels like there's different groups inside MS that are working from fundamentally incompatible premises, and Nadella either isn't willing or isn't able to wrangle them into all pulling in the same direction. I guess it's an improvement over the Microsoft of old to see the company's basic orientation go from "competent evil" to "incompetent good," but when you consider how few good things there are in the universe it's always sad to see a potential new one kneecapping itself.
> It feels like there's different groups inside MS that [...] Nadella either isn't willing or isn't able to wrangle them into all pulling in the same direction
Not MS specifically, charging between business units as though they're outside companies is pretty common these days. It's as disastrous for cooperation and productivity as you'd imagine.
I know someone who works at Microsoft (and has for 15 years.) These cartoons are brilliant--especially the org charts for different companies--but things actually are changing at Microsoft.
Some divisions change faster than others. And some old reputations are very hard to shake. But Microsoft isn't the company it used to be. There are other companies filling that role now. Example: Even though all you ever hear about is "Windows is spying on me!" I can name three big tech companies that probably know more about you than Microsoft does.
Thanks for the downvotes! But seriously, do you honestly think that Microsoft is spying on your more than Google, Facebook, or Amazon? And do you think your Mac OS doesn't have the exact same sort of telemetry (or more!) that Windows has?
While this may change at any operating system update (It did for Win7 in a supposedly "security" update), my Mac seems to want to talk to Apple only to get AppStore updates, whereas Windows machines in my office want to talk to a lot of servers at Microsoft, and do so with hard coded IPs, and weird process names. Can you point to an Apple equivalent of this list? https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2017/04/micro...
My browser has a strict policy that tells Google, Facebook and Amazon exactly what I allow it to; that sometimes causes things to malfunction, and I can live with that. Can you tell me how to do that with Win10?
Oh, and, no, Fedora, Arch and even with Ubuntu's worst blunder in this respect, do not spy on me even 1:10000 as Microsoft does.
Sure, I can accept that a platform can be doing more than a website and also that you have less control over a platform. Good points, both.
I won't comment on Android. I already got ripped to shreds above by trying to bring up the point that mobile is completely locked into two major players that act exactly like Windows 10.
Since everything and everyone is collecting user data, it would be fair to leave the starter/home/"cloud" editions as it is.
But damn, if I'm going to pay for my OS I want ZERO data collection and the option to never use stuff like Cortana (opt-in). And if that's too much to ask, why don't they release a more expensive Windows 10 Tinfoil Edition? You would still have to trust MS but at least you would have the legal right to dispute it (if they decide to do something shady).
Really? On a discussion about a desktop OS? There are so many things going through my mind after your comment that I can't even start typing. Branch limit reached.
I'm using Android and I have the same concerns about it. I gave my Lumia away because it doesn't have the apps that I need and, again, I had the same concerns. My time is limited so I have to pick my battles. Mobile is a lost cause.
So I decide to give feedback about one of the two desktop OSs that I use (Windows and Linux). I don't give a shit if Apple/Google is going to make you insert a coin every hour to use the OS, I would still complain to MS if they decided to do the same.
I don't even know exactly what's your point. Feel free to ask if I write Microsoft with a $.
I didn't mean to offend. I'm just saying that if you think paying for an OS means you won't have data collection, then you're unlikely to find a smartphone that suits you.
My point, exactly, is that Microsoft is just another tech company these days. They're not the Evil Empire. At best, they are one of Many Evil Fiefdoms.
I understand that people are up in arms about data collection. And I understand that Microsoft tends to bungle any kind of public messaging about data collection. I'm just pointing out that every mobile OS, at least, collects tons of data.
> I'm just saying that if you think paying for an OS means you won't have data collection, then you're unlikely to find a smartphone that suits you
> I understand that people are up in arms about data collection. And I understand that Microsoft tends to bungle any kind of public messaging about data collection. I'm just pointing out that every mobile OS, at least, collects tons of data.
Why do you keep talking about mobile when the subject of this thread and my original comment is about Windows Desktop OS? Should we talk about IoT too?
> My point, exactly, is that Microsoft is just another tech company these days. They're not the Evil Empire. At best, they are one of Many Evil Fiefdoms.
You're triggered because I mentioned the word "trust"? When data leaves your computer, it's all about trust. I don't trust anyone so I don't want my personal data leaking in the first place. Most of the time ("like in mobile") there's no viable, realistic, practical alternative.
If the money I paid for my Windows license is not enough they need to rethink their pricing. That's all I'm asking. Allow me to pay for my privacy. I would quietly leave your ecosystem if I could but congratulations, you have me locked in because of my job and certain network effects.
Wow, sorry. No, no, I'm not triggered at all. I was only trying to illustrate the fact that there are times when we have no choice but to use an OS that uses telemetry.
I'll happily concede this thread and apologize for having brought it up. I really wasn't trying to start a fight. I was trying to give what I thought was an analogous example.
In my opinion it was never truly off even when the label pointed to that. Explorer, Photos, Cortana and everything else is constantly making networks calls for "reasons". For me "Off" means it will only call home to check for updates and for opt-in features that requires a connection.
Considering how much they are probably spending in order to make this happen (considering the amount of work being done to it), I feel like it was started as a proposal to the head people that there was a group of people that normally wouldn't use windows, but could be convinced to use it by having this subsystem. Along with this, supporting open source makes Microsoft look good.
But, it wasn't anywhere close to enough of an importance for Microsoft to abandon their data collection system just to go "all the way" with the whole open source thing. It seems like their privacy model is more important to them than whatever an open source model could bring them.
iCloud is at least also an Apple product. The last time I installed Win10 (fresh, legal install media direct from Microsoft), on the first boot there was an ad for Candy Crush in the start menu. That's just unacceptable.
On the one hand, they really seem earnest about wanting to make Windows 10 appealing to people like me who fled Windows for Unix-alike systems long ago.
I tried Ubuntu on Windows 10, and found it too wonky. I switched over to running Xubuntu in VirtualBox!
It feels like there's different groups inside MS that are working from fundamentally incompatible premises
Xubuntu is lovely, but for the last year I've been on i3/IceWeasel/urxvt exclusively. So much faster and more convenient than clicking and dragging around all the time.
When friends want to use my desktop I change my DE to XFCE for a sec. I also still use the XFCE login screen (because it's easy to install, it works and you get per-user DE defaults).
What Microsoft is doing with Windows today is not just "competent evil," it's "deliberate competent evil." 90's Microsoft was tolerable. Since Windows 10, they've destroyed the entire Windows ecosystem for anyone that cares about privacy. IMO, that's orders of magnitude worse for everyone. But hey, at least if we find a keylogger in Microsoft software, at least we know it's a feature, not a bug or debugging tool.
I think people have a bit of a popular misconception about the Explorer advertising thing. What's happening is that MS is adding a banner to Explorer advertising paid OneDrive subscriptions.
I totally agree that it's massively inappropriate, but I do think that most people are imagining third-party advertising which is not what's happening - a lot of people might not consider the current situation to be an "ad" necessarily since it is pushing a subscription for OneDrive, a Microsoft product that you already have installed. It's more of an in-app purchase kind of offer.
If this is all it is, then it is not unprecedented. I remember that Windows 95 did something similar with MSN (which at that time was also a dialup service).
Yeah, I recently installed Windows 95 in a VM to run some old software and I was actually quite surprised at how hard it pushes MSN - the "connect to the internet" wizard it presents basically asks if you're on a LAN and, if you say no, tells you to call MSN to sign up.
As-is, I don't think it's a big deal. This is a slippery slope though. Look at what cable television has become. You pay for the product and they shove advertisements down your throat. Satellite radio is doing the same thing.
They don't necessarily make it easy to turn off all the weird ad-type-stuff, but they don't make it impossible either. A quick tour through settings on install can get rid of it all.
There is still one absolutely heinous crime though - your system comes preinstalled with Minecraft and Candy Crush (and a couple other bullshit softares), and if you uninstall them, Windows 10 will automatically reinstall them. You have to do esoteric shit in the registry editor to disable this. It infuriates me.
>There is still one absolutely heinous crime though - your system comes preinstalled with Minecraft and Candy Crush (and a couple other bullshit softares), and if you uninstall them, Windows 10 will automatically reinstall them.
That was fixed in Creators Update: it now remembers uninstalled default applications.
I recently did a fresh install of creators update on my laptop. Not only does it have crapware bundled that I had to uninstall, it has placeholders for apps from store which is literally advertisement. I also got edge ads when I was downloading other browser. I preemptively disabled all other "suggestions", but saying that windows 10 doesn't have ads is a blatant lie.
I formatted a few weeks ago. After installing Chrome and opening it, a popover appeared over the Edge icon in my toolbar explaining how much faster it is. I've also seen a few OneDrive ads.
It seems to me like the issue is that its just a really large ship and will take a while for the whole company to get on board with the new philosphy. Redmond wasn't built in a day.
On the one hand, they really seem earnest about wanting to make Windows 10 appealing to people like me who fled Windows for Unix-alike systems long ago. And steps like this show that they're not just addressing that at a shallow level, but are willing to dig deep to make it happen, which is sincerely encouraging.
But then on the other hand, they insist on loading Windows 10 up with privacy invasions you can't disable and ads in deeply inappropriate places like Windows Explorer, which is just a huge buzz-kill for the exact type of person who the other stuff is so clearly meant to appeal to. Which gives the whole effort a real Keystone Kops aspect.
It feels like there's different groups inside MS that are working from fundamentally incompatible premises, and Nadella either isn't willing or isn't able to wrangle them into all pulling in the same direction. I guess it's an improvement over the Microsoft of old to see the company's basic orientation go from "competent evil" to "incompetent good," but when you consider how few good things there are in the universe it's always sad to see a potential new one kneecapping itself.